Immigration VII: Conclusion - The conversation ends, but the debate will go on.Mar 27, 2006

A conversation between allies on immigration reform.

Duke1676 and Ductape Fatwa

DuctapeFatwa:

I did not mean to imply that the underclasshood would be permanent, either for immigrants or the mainstream population.

I do think that you can count on a period of intensified underclasshood for most of the US population, but it is that very condition that I believe will lead to a correction, as we have seen in other times and places.

Will that be led by the immigrants? I can’t say for sure, as I outlined in my rant, I think there are some circumstances that could make that a strong possibility, but there is always the possibility that the downshifted mainstream people will not downshift quietly.

Either way, the correction will deprive the corporations of having their desires permanently realized.

I admit, I may be being a bit overoptimistic in my predictions, because I do believe that it will be better for ordinary Americans if the correction is imposed from within, as opposed to externally, and in my rant I have rather cavalierly omitted the effects of the crusade and other probable external imposition catalysts.

I think our fundamental disagreement may be how long the current situation will last, and therefore whether there is much point in constructing elaborate programs that would effectively require cultural change within the immigrant population, and cultural changes take time.

I don’t think that the US has time, for that or much else.

Oh, and I also wanted to say that I agree with one of your previous points, about the longer time frame for people learning Spanish.

Some will do it pretty quick, we can’t know how many of today’s ten year olds will marry people who speak English as a first language, and of course their kids, and many of the spouses will be bilingual within one generation.

But for many, it might indeed be two or three generations before it happens. Interestingly, immigrants coming from different places are learning Spanish as fast or faster as they learn English - if they learn it at all. In Houston, for example, there is a huge VietNamese community that speaks VietNamese - and Spanish, but not so much English!

This was actually a smart choice, for business and efficiency. Spanish is a phonetic language, easier to learn, and in the neighborhoods where they settled, and started businesses, most of the clientele speaks Spanish.

Duke1676:

I think you’re right about our fundamental difference being one of timing. I believe that although at the present time things appear to hurdling towards the apocalypse, the fact that some remnants of a democracy still exist in this country (for the time being) bodes well for a more protracted, soft landing. Over time the pendulum will shift and the current paradigm will take a 180-degree turn.

This is particularly true in times of crisis.

The American people on a whole have little patience for protracted periods of turmoil, be it economic, social or international. We seem to move in frenetic and often contradictory bursts. The imperialism and unrestricted capitalism of the late nineteenth century quickly gave way to the progressive movement and isolationism of the first few decades of the twentieth, century. The same could be said of the new deal and the laissez-faire policies that preceded it.

McCarthyism, The Sixties, Reagan… these can all be seen as short bursts of activity followed by periods of “business as usual”. I believe we are at one of those turning points right now. This Bush doctrine, both domestically and internationally, has begun to wear out its welcome and the American people will react accordingly.

On a side note. The growing anti-immigrant movement with all its racism and intolerance could be viewed as a healthy sign that at least the American people are still willing to rebel against the policies of their government (albeit in a very UNHEALTHYmanner). Like a wounded animal the newly disenfranchised are lashing out against the first available target. If over time they come to realize that their true enemy is not the brown, black or yellow man with whom they are forced compete economically, but rather those who set up this paradigm … change could come sooner than we think.

DuctapeFatwa:

I think that it will not take those of the MinuteMen who are shortly obliged to choose whether to pay for their grandma’s medicine this month, or pay the mortgage, long to get their first clue that it is not the Mexicans who have the guns.

We do not know what the effect of the first Medicare D for Death wave will be, aside from a smart uptrend in the profitability of the remains disposal industry.

You shake yourself awake, though you had never really been asleep, at least you hope not. It would be dangerous to go to sleep while eating. Maybe you have slipped into some sort of digestive coma. Certainly you have never seen, much less eaten, this much food at once. Or such delicious food. You cannot stop yourself from mentioning the extraordinary and gargantuan array of the world’s cuisine.

Duke taps his napkin to his lips delicately, and reaches for another serving of Kashmiri lamb, sprinkles it with finely chopped habanero peppers, makes a taco of injera bread.

Considering the subject of our discussion, he says, we thought an all-American menu would be appropriate.